14 | Never Stop Conquering, “Being Different is BETTER than Being Better”

David Kalsow 0:00

Today's episode is brought to you by change management communication center. Contact them when you need to shift, strengthen and elevate your organization from us and them to we and how go to never stop conquering calm to learn more on to the show.

David Kalsow 0:20

I'm David Kalsow. And you're listening to APC Presents where I showcase independent podcasters from Northeast Wisconsin. Poland from the never stop conquering feed this week, our wonderful guest and APC member Tina Schulke key interviews David Brier, Google's number one rebranding expert about rising above the noise purely by being different. David Brier has got a doozy of a resume when it comes to marketing and branding. So hopefully we can take some goodies from that for our own podcasts. I'm pleased to present being different is better than being better from never stop conquering.

Tina Schulke 1:15

Welcome to never stop conquering a podcast known for untangling the thing that's probably getting in your way. Tina's guests are business owners, executives, celebrities, and influencers who share their best stuff, because they never stopped conquering. Guests are not just good idea fairies in every podcast, we're giving you steps to take so you, too, can achieve what nobody thinks is possible. Now here's your host, Tina Schulke. Hey, I hope everybody's doing great. Thanks for listening. And I hope your week is going fantastic. Today we're going to talk with David Brier, Google's number one rebranding expert, Slayer of the mundane Liberator of awesome advisor to CEOs. And my favorite author, David wrote and published brand intervention, it's a best seller, and he's responsible for more than a billion dollars in sales. We're going to talk to David today, he's going to explain to us like he did for me, why being different will grow your business so much faster, and so much bigger than being better. David,

David Brier 2:37

Tina,

Tina Schulke 2:38

it's so good to have you. Let's let's talk. Okay.

David Brier 2:42

Very good. To me to jump right in. Yeah. Well, thank you very fabulous, that fabulous introduction. Basically, here's the interesting thing. Like, every company that I deal with, I love I always love the initial conversations, because they're telling me how amazingly fantastic they

Tina Schulke 3:00

are. I did know I brought all my stuff, all my marketing materials, and here's what we have. And I'm thinking he's gonna say, hey, that's pretty good.

David Brier 3:09

Right? Right. I probably said something different, right?

Tina Schulke 3:12

Yeah, something like what the fuck are you think? It didn't come out your words, but definitely in the expression. Yeah, they're not the words

David Brier 3:23

are the words. Well, well, here's what here's the interesting thing. Here's the other thing. So the point is, is that you know, I've learned to communicate in a way that actually makes sense to entrepreneurs to business owners. It's like look, we have this amazing product this amazing service we have the battle scars to prove it. We've got the we've got specimens of the blood and the sweat and the tears all that all can document you know, how much of our soul we poured into this. I had a carton full of happy customers Always, always, or aren't sometimes sometimes yes, sometimes. No, that's not that's not always a prerequisite. I mean that they but it's kind of like they're absolutely in love with and obsessed with their, their drunk their own Kool Aid and their baby, despite its four eyeballs, you know, and three years is the most beautiful baby. Right, that they that exists. And so so they're, like, blinded by the love and the adoration and the commitment and the conviction and the years and the

Tina Schulke 4:22

earth. Oh, like are half dead tree. Right?

David Brier 4:25

Right? Exactly. Tina is referring to routine is referring to the previous incarnation of the change management brand, which has now been revived and resuscitated brought back to life and is healthier, bigger, better, kinda like the bionic man except without the digital, special sound effects. So the thing that I would say is when a client comes to me and they say, you know, we're great, we're great, we're great. Of course, the first thing I say is now, if I went to your competitors, I suspect they're probably here very much the same kind of, you know, accolades of their own greatness and whatever they've done. And so if you're playing in the better game, like, no, we're better No, no, we're better Oh, well, they have 12 benefits. Oh, we have 14 benefits. Oh, well, they do, they do that they'll ship it to you and say a three day shipping, we'll ship it to you. So you have two days shipping will ship to you on one day shipping? Well, we'll we'll move in. So you never actually ever have, that doesn't matter. You know, it just gets ridiculous. You can try it out feature and outpace and do all that kind of stuff. And that's a losing battle, because you're still playing in the same box as everyone else. That means you always have to compare yourself to the others. That box is full. Not only is it full, but it's full of noise. Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, yeah, it's full, it's occupied. But it's but it's, I mean, if we look, let's, if we don't look at the world, through our eyes, we look at the world through the recipients eyes, our audience that we want to talk to, there's noise that's hitting them all the time. And so it doesn't matter. Even if what we're saying is true, here's the here's the like, ridiculous part of it, it could be absolutely true, you have created something that is amazing. You've created something that is so unlike what anybody else has done. But if you're using the same words, the same promises, the same context, the same framework, the same advantages, the same benefits, how the hell is the person receiving that good to know that your words have any more meaning than the other words that they've already heard? 200 times 500 times 1000 times 5000 times previously, that's the problem. That is the problem

Tina Schulke 6:47

is a problem. I remember how, how difficult it was for me to work myself out of that problem. Yeah, there were some magical steps, I took a big step on my own after we met. And I listened to your presentation and got my book signed. And I remember going up to you to get my book signed. And I, I just had this like, pit of my stomach, oh, my God, I did it wrong. I was writing that proposal for a really good, large global

David Brier 7:20

global brand, a very, very large brand.

Tina Schulke 7:22

I was competing with some of the, you know, big five consulting firms. And I sat there and I became very humble. And then I became very ill listening to you. And I looked at my materials, and I wanted to like, hand them to the person next to me and say, these are yours, right? Because I didn't want to own them anymore. And I knew, I knew that I couldn't push send on that proposal that I was so proud of and excited about the room I fucking weekend, because we're in the playoffs. And I had to go back and rework what I done. But was that ever powerful, we got the biggest contract at that time to date, because of how I transformed my proposal because of what I listened to, and made a baby step, a baby step in the direction I needed to

David Brier 8:15

go. But the great thing about you is that you were willing to inspect that's that's probably the that's probably the biggest, it's probably the biggest hurdle that that entrepreneurs or businesses have to kind of faces. Maybe everything we've done is not perfect, even though we've been doing it for 510 20 years, or if it's a multi generational fit. Well, my father did this, and he grew it into a multi million dollar, multi billion dollar company. So therefore, I'm going to continue it. Excuse me, but culture has changed. needs have changed, competitive landscape has changed. Things did not remain still, if you know there's a premise if things remain still, if nothing changed. Sure, that'd be a fine way to operate. Oh, it'd be boring as hell could be boring as hell, but it would not be but But getting back to the point that you that you asked me the whole thing about, so why is being better? Why does he or why is being different, better than being better? The reason is, because when you're when you actually look at it like you did you look at it and say, Hmm, do we need to really, really written totally reshape this? revisit this, look at it with fresh eyes. That's where that's where it became very interesting and you start to go, Okay, so if we're actually going to be different, that means we're we're looking we're recognizing the box that everybody's playing in. And then we're willing to step outside of the box and redefine what we're bringing to the world. And as a result, if we need to, we'll create a new category. And you look at the greatest brands in the world. That's what they did. You know, Apple didn't come in as, hey, we're a better country. Get our company. No, they were like, Hey, we're here to actually serve the rebels of the world, you know, where you can actually where you can actually create. Right? And Nike wasn't about I mean, look, I grew when I grew up, there was kids, and there was Converse, and it was one of the and those are like the sneakers of the day. And then all of a sudden Nike comes along did Nike say the better sneaker? No, that would have been being better right? Instead they were different. No, they showed the aspiration they show the aspiration was you had Michael Jordan doing his thing where he just like freakin practically floats to you know, then boom and then totally dumps dunks. And so even like you look at Dyson Dyson is a brand right? It's like prior to that i think i think vacuum cleaners had been doing what they've been doing for 5060 years and no change Yeah, no change they had Yes. And they come along they use design they use color and they use their what the heck's that word with the the the turbine the tour the whole turbine system right as opposed to just suction yeah actually is a turbine system and so and it was visible to they actually made a transparent so you actually can see Wow, look at all the dirt and crap that I pulled off my run Holy mackerel, we've been pigs before this oh my god right.

Tina Schulke: 11:18">11:18

And so I didn't like that part.

David Brier: 11:21">11:21

I thought hey, look, you know I'm wanting to experience humility about two three times a year you know, just just pleadingly you know, like, Oh, that was a humble moment. Alright, good next so but but that was video but the each of those it's like, what do they do they they were willing to step outside and go Wait a second. We don't have to who's saying we have to play by the same rules.

David Kalsow: 11:44">11:44

Welcome to the Podcast Fast Class. This is checking numero dos. You shouldn't have submitted your RSS feed last week and did you see that email come through that said it's been approved? I certainly hope so. It's a great feeling when you get that next we got to start thinking about your first episode how are you going to come out of the gates running now this should have been thought about probably a little bit beforehand now but if you're just catching on that's great. Think it through a little bit how are you going to market How are you gonna you know have a little party for the very first episode of your show? I'm sure you're gonna do great. Then episodes two and three are just around the corner and maybe you want a guest to interview or something? Well I'm sure you can find a few in the APC members Facebook group links in the notes back to the show

David Brier: 12:39">12:39

a company in the HDA space right? Yeah. And you saw that

Tina Schulke: 12:44">12:44

I saw cocoon is amazing it's amazing look it up folks. cocoon

David Brier: 12:49">12:49

you can yeah you can you can you can find it you can look them up or you can just go to my go to my website rising above the noise calm RSI mg rising, rising or otherwise that calm you'll see it in the blog, but but the point was like 1919 100 years ago, the first the first central central basically sort of heating cooling system was actually invented and patented central air central era that year 1991 or two years ago, nothing has changed except for the size of the companies and how they distribute now the market very similar to what happened in the vacuum space with with when Dyson entered in so cocoon once I understood because look at it, we could have been were the better one. Well, first of all betters opinion, different, different if you're smart can be a fact. Sure. Let's look at that. So the better his opinion is like we're better. Well, then you say well, you believe sure you think you're better. We're better. It's like watching politics when you listen to Well, God is doing great. Oh, no, the economy's doing crap. Like kinda, you know, someone so suffering. When someone says, We're winning, it's like, Yeah, well, how can they all be looking at the same thing and entering completely different conclusions? You don't want to present something that's like your conclusion. But you do want to present something that's a point of difference, a point of understanding. So that's what happened with with cocoon is like because they literally literally his it, and it was very interesting not to so much of the conversations you you and I think it took about maybe took about eight conversations. And I because you'd bring me back, I'd ask you some questions. you'd bring me back some content. And I'd say, cool. Now Tina, do your clients talk this way? And we would keep we keep that we kept digging and digging, and then you'd be like, and deeper and deeper and deeper.

Tina Schulke: 14:37">14:37

I listened to the clients, but what I what my Achilles heel was right? Was I listen and I'd be like, Oh, yeah, I get that. I see that I've heard that I understand. And I go right to the prescription. Right what you need, right? So I'd speak to them about two and a half miles ahead of where they We're starting right? And but because I was speaking the language that experts speak about this subject, they were like, well, she speaks the language, maybe she can help us get this shit done. Right. But it wasn't like when I asked what was valuable when I asked what they wanted to be acknowledged for, during key moments of the project, you know, what we were doing really well. And also what we could do better. What I heard back was exactly the language I needed to use about our company. Right? And you listened for that? I was listening to be the, I don't know, I don't know, no at all or something like, oh, let me

David Brier: 15:48">15:48

look, you're the hire specialist who has a very specific area of expertise. There's just like, I kept I kept on having to dial it back and going, I mean, know that I kept on asking, and I was getting the I was getting what you your, I was getting your understanding. And I was like, Good, let's back it up. Because your understanding was still about seven stages away from what they were saying, and their understanding. So I was like, good, what are they? So how would they say that. And then it was like, we peel we peel it, it was like appealing. And we try and peel it and peel it until we finally got it to where the language is now actually something that was something on their terms, because the one thing that I tell you, one thing that I always go over is the fact that the road to your front door as a business starts at your customers front door, not in ours.

Tina Schulke: 16:36">16:36

Like what you hear so far, make sure you never miss a show by clicking the subscribe button now. This podcast is made possible by listeners like you. So thank you for your support. Now, back to the show. That was so empowering for me. Like, it was such a transformational moment for me to think like that. It did two things immediately. I was like, oh, man, I'm doing this wrong. And how could I be so arrogant? And how could I? How could I do this to people? Right? How can I not honor where they are? And then at the same time, it's like, how come I'm so far ahead of them. And I don't notice it. I think everybody has this secret sauce or this magic juice, right? Like, I think everybody can do what I can do, or our team can do. That that's not the truth. I can't do what you do, David. And our clients, our customers can't do what we do best, right? At least not yet. Like after we work together but can untangle it and get there give

David Brier: 17:43">17:43

me give me baby years the differences a year one is they couldn't do they couldn't have the impartiality that you have, right you have the impartial passion you like you know, now you're looking for, but you're impartial about it, you're you can say yea or nay or good or bad or trim the fat and not be concerned about it. But then you're also hired to then give them the tools to now maintain that. So you now have policies in place and basic structure in place to now now they've got that sound foundation and have cleaned things up. Now they have the forward moving path, and that's what you're bringing to them. But you know, buddy of mine who has Nike as a client, it's like, you know, he he, he's like, Well, why does Nike have an agency? They've had an agency for I think, 25 years. Nike has the internal Nike has over 30 I think they have over 300 people in the design space in within their company, why don't they have used them to do it, because they will not have the impartiality, they will be too close to it. Proximity is one of the biggest Achilles heels of any organization. They're too close to say we're great. We're awesome. It's like it's a double cycle. But we went through it right. So I asked the questions, you answer them. But they weren't wasn't the language that was going to get us down the road? Do you know anything incorrect about your answers? No, they were good. And they were great answers. They just weren't though in a way that was digestible one differentiating too, right? Has that both of those factors? And that's the thing is that is it so it's much better to differentiate than it is to actually be better be different, will always be farther than being better. People buy differences. Why did you buy that dress was of some some distinction, some difference? That you were like, Oh, well, because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Why do you go to that store? Certain differences. Why do you buy those sneakers? So in evidence, what do you drive that car certain differences. What do you hire that firm certain differences. I can guarantee you I can I can sit anybody down, I will go over the last 10 purchases where it was not just like an impulse thing. I went to the convenience thing, I needed some wire, I just grab whatever the hell is close to the door. Like I'm not talking about that I'm talking about, okay, you're actually standing there you're looking, you're seeing what the options are. You're making the choice you're going to Amazon or you're going to retail brick and mortar or whatever wherever you're going, but It always comes down to a difference. And if you own the difference, you will get so much farther than just being well, I know that they have five pizza toppings will have 12 it's like how far can you take that? It's like, you know, it just gets ridiculous. I mean, so try to out feature is just playing the veteran game. Because the two races I will always tell any business owner to never engage in, never ever engage in the race to the top, which is well, we'll out feature view will not benefit you. Well, it will will out something you are Yeah, yeah. Or the race to the bottom, which is we'll do it for less. So those are the two races that are participating.

Tina Schulke: 20:39">20:39

You know, what was like one of the best things that happened for us once we started working with you. Because we no longer wanted to be in that noisy box, that box full of noise where nobody could see us. Nobody could find us. Like I almost fell out of my chair, when I found out that this huge global manufacturer found us by doing a Google search. I'm like, Ha, that is hilarious and awesome. Wow, lucky. I don't know what happened. But it was cool. We're out of the box does who we get to be ourselves. authentic. Real. That is so much more comfortable than trying to fit in a noisy box. We're quite honestly, we didn't even belong in the first place.

David Brier: 21:28">21:28

Well, exactly. And that's and that's the thing it actually is. It's a very strange thing to say that because the point is, is that there's a little bit of if people are kind of, let's just echo what everybody else is kind of saying, but we'll just echo a little bit louder, or a little bit this or a little bit better. But we'll kind of essentially say the same thing. How are

Tina Schulke: 21:49">21:49

we all going to win that SEO search?

David Brier: 21:51">21:51

Well, it's not it's not even just not even just an SEO point. But it's actually lazy. It actually is. It's an admission saying, you know, we really didn't give it the wherewithal to care about our brand. I mean, I just but it's

Tina Schulke: 22:05">22:05

lazy part of it is um, fear.

David Brier: 22:10">22:10

Could be fear could be here could be laziness.

Tina Schulke: 22:12">22:12

Fear, like when I remember like,

David Brier: 22:15">22:15

so you're fearless. You are fearless. Tina, I am fearless. But you're the Wonder Woman of Oshkosh.

Tina Schulke: 22:25">22:25

I did though, when I was starting my businesses. I wanted to fit in. I wanted to fit into that noisy box. Because I believed that that was

David Brier: 22:34">22:34

we thought the winners were we thought that's who the winners were right? Yeah. That's the thing that's that

Tina Schulke: 22:39">22:39

I was so damn wrong. So Damn, right, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it was scared because oh my gosh, if I don't fit in, nobody will know what the heck it is I do, or why Yeah, they won't know how to use us to get their best results. I was wrong and needed to like turn around and take a look at that. Like I was walking one way so fast and so hard. Really efforting it. And all I needed to do is turn around and go. Hmm. Okay, there you are. That's what I need to do. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. Oh, it

David Brier: 23:16">23:16

feels good, though. Oh, totally, totally. We're just hours away from the big reveal.

Tina Schulke: 23:22">23:22

I know, you guys have listeners, you're gonna listen to this after our big reveal. But David and I are sitting here with some of our co workers, our colleagues in this podcast room, and we're all feeling like we're about to go to like Disney on steroids to reveal our new brand to our customers and our community. And then tell the story beyond that, you know, everywhere. It's so dang exciting. I want to have like a burn party like something to get rid of that old tree. I'll put that out there just for you guys to see and you can say whatever you want about it. A lot of people tell me it's beautiful and pretty. And it is where we start and I do appreciate everything we've learned from that. I am definitely and I surround myself with experiential learners. Like the whole idea of looking at yourself. That's not new to me. I bump into step into fall off a shit all the time. I mean, that's how I learn and girl My whole life. So yeah, I guess that's why I'm fearless. I know that

David Brier: 24:31">24:31

and that's why that's why you're the Wonder Woman of Oshkosh. Just I'll do that with the full effect. So Wonder Woman of Oshkosh.

Tina Schulke: 24:48">24:48

That is awesome. Thank you so much, David. I really appreciate you speaking with our never stop conquering listeners. And I look forward to spending the rest of the day Fun.

David Brier: 25:00">25:00

Oh absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for having me. And this is a very epic, epic awesome day. And for those of you just Tina is going to be lighting this place on fire. She's already out of control. She's only going to get more out of control. You know, I recognized what I who I've helped here and more than take the fall. It's okay.

Tina Schulke: 25:22">25:22

Fine, fine, David of rising above the noise calm by his book. It is the best book like you will ever have. It's unlike any other book I've read. And clearly unlike any other business book, I read brand intervention. Buy it you will not regret it.

David Brier: 25:44">25:44

daymond john from Shark Tank wrote the foreword and everyone from Grant Cardone Claude silver from Gary Vaynerchuk. Genki Berg, Gary Vaynerchuk VaynerMedia and Ted Rubin, Stu Stu sharmin, CEO of no before they just became a billion billion dollar unicorn in the past six months and so all these people have absolutely endorsed and love the freaking book. So if you value your future as I know you do play the freakin book.

Tina Schulke: 26:15">26:15

Yeah. Thanks for joining us this week, I never stopped conquering podcast. Make sure to visit our website. Never stop conquering calm, where you can subscribe and never miss a show. And while you're at it, if you found value in this show, we'd appreciate a rating on captivate or Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Even better. Tell your friends to listen to it. If you're really serious about this, and want to never stop conquering, Tina and her team are available for private coaching, corporate consulting and keynotes. Be sure to tune in next week for another episode. Thanks and enjoy today.

David Kalsow: 27:04">27:04

I hope you had some great takeaways there for your own podcast. But with Tina's podcast on hiatus, you should go connect with her online and let her know that you listened to the show. Maybe you could get her to bring some more of these types of interviews to you in the never stop conquering feed. That would be pretty nice. If you want to bounce your marketing or branding ideas off other podcasters head on over to Appleton Podcast Co-op comm to join our local community. You can also enter the Podcast Fast Class giveaway to win some free gear. If you know someone in Northeast Wisconsin who likes podcast share this show with them. If you've made it this far, please rate and review the show on pod chaser or Travelocity for TripAdvisor. I'm on vacation this week, so I don't really care. I'm David Kalsow, your neighborly podcast nerd and thanks for listening

Transcribed by https://otter.ai